2) by my research, medics suffered 93% casualties with about 33% deaths. 99% of infantry men will currently live to die of natural causes. General Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike (a professor at the University of California, Berkeley), a major military defeat for the VC and NVA. Done ranting. I was an O5C-20 in Vietnam. The blasts from the AMMO, really lit up the whole area. July 68 to July 69. Address: 561 E Hines Hill Road Hudson, Ohio 44236 Phone: 1-800-650-0659 / 330-655-5050 Fax: 330-653-3750 Email: [emailprotected], Retail Store Hours: Monday-Friday: 9am - 5pm EST Saturdays: 10am -3pm (Oct-Jan) Sundays: Closed. An interesting comment I had. Explore the Life of a U.S. Infantryman in Vietnam. The key may be the word initial since we became more savvy with successive combats and had improved survivability. I know this is a standard cliche, but it is so true, All gave some. The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1961. Eventually I found a spot where the bed leveled off and began firing on the NVA. Much smaller income differentials in life expectancy, 0.2 to 3.6 life-years smaller for Veterans in 2010-17 are estimated. Fact: No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. He retired in 2012 and lives in Delray Beach, Florida. LUCK pure LUCK. We walked the mountains and rice patties all thru Tu Thien Province. Commanders like him were few and far between many were afraid of their own shadow and were only there to get their ticket punched. If it was your day to get hit or die, it happened. Thank God I made it. They were Kims cousins not her brothers. We flew north, then made a stop, in Cam Rahn Bay. %%EOF
Non-divisional aeromedical evacuation units went by the callsign DUSTOFF. All that other stuff about seconds and minutes were story tellers, embellishing things to impress some listeners back home. Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers. Soon I could take the gun apart and put it back together in the dark. . I was also told that the Radio did put a target on my back. We were in2dBn 503d . 4329 0 obj
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Tony told me that either he or I would greet all incoming troops and we did- and here is the speech we gave to them. S/F, There were no door gunners on dustoffs. No trees or anything on the ground. Company A searched in vain for the platoon in the dark and finally found the shattered unit on the morning of May 19. The 4th Platoon survivors stayed put for the night. I was a 2LT on Hamburger Hill and had 4 RTOs over a 7 day period (excluding the times I ended up carrying my own radio). I was a 2nd Lt. Infantry platoon Leader. The two platoons were to advance no more than 200 yards from the main body of the company. Love this analysis. The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. I didnt make a move without that gun beside me. He said fighting was especially deadly in the war-torn city of Bakhmut, dubbed "the meat . Our Aussie Dust off choppers had door gunners, we worked on the theory if the Noggies would shot at Red Cross choppers, we would return fire, Aussie grunt, 60000 00 Aussies fought in Vietnam, Up the Old Red Rooster and more beer. They also struggled with logistical problems and the complex political situation in Vietnam. See you in the next life!!!!! I was a point man, M60 Gunner and squad leader. Before I became a team leader on ambush and recon I was in command of the scout jeep for the 25th ID resupply convoy from January 1968 to June 15, 1968 and I found the resupply convoys a lot more dangerous because the enemy always knew where it would be and when. In the First Armored Division, now part of the 23rd Infantry Division, commonly known as the Americal Division, combat medics were called into action every day because the fighting was now. I packed my own radio and got a Thank you from his Mom. Your article was quite interesting. How Many Vietnam War Veterans Are Still Alive? THE MAN I INHERITED THE GUN FROM WASNT SO LUCKY. Total fantasy. Their personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent. You just do the best job you can and if you got hit, so be it! You were a Great RTO. I put the M60s bipod legs down, lifted the weapon and positioned it on the ground outside the streambed facing the NVA. 6 Answers They say Kali Ma Theyre referencing this scene from the movie Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom: What is the life expectancy of an army infantry soldier? Company B had seven dead, Grandstaff announced, and I was to take No. Many were killed or wounded ! Thanks for the reply. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. Photo above is of Stanley Kober with RTO, John Scheur. African Americans played a prominent role in the Vietnam War. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. I was in 2nd Platoon and carried the platoons No. Thanks for posting! Answer (1 of 12): It heavily depends. Some 23% of Vietnam vets had fathers with professional, managerial We were discussing the different units and dangers of each. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. I had been shot in the back early in the battle and was lying behind a log with two other soldiers. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE VIETNAM VETS ARE NOT. I wasnt aware that they kept life expectancy statistics. An infantry platoon commander in combat had an average of 6 weeks life expectancy. In Company A, 22 men had been killedadded to the seven killed in Company B. Company B arrived in-country with four rifle platoons, and each platoon was armed with two M60s. News media have reported tha an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc.Those are incorrect. I was with HHC and 1st Platoon C Company in 70-71. They were glad to see me as it had been a while for replacements with the unit. As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. May was eventually able to hand off 2nd Platoons No. Dont know why, but generally, their aircraft were not armed (door gunners, etc.). I think convoy truck drivers had one of the most dangerous job. Just to show that its hard to get an accurate number, note my typo of 56,220. Welcome Home Roger. Such as in the song Jimmy by M.I.A look at aaja in the dictionary My indian boyfriend told me is meaning come to me, 6 Answers I have never had or heard of that particular brand, but have had several here in Canada, plus a number in the Caribbean and Asia, and there all the same, small cut hot dogs in a can, no need q now please.. Name the major nerves that serve the following body areas:? Event date is used instead of declared dead date for some of those who were listed as missing in action). Some very close calls but I am alive at age 74. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II. What is the life expectancy of Vietnam veterans? A dense mass of elephant grass hung over the riverbank, and he ducked under it. The Vietnam Conflict Extract Data File of the Defense Casualty Analysis System (DCAS) Extract Files contains records of 58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties of the Vietnam War. In Vietnam 70% 0f the casualties were Infantry BUT it might be 70% of ALL the Infantry that served in Vietnam. Comments were more interesting than the article it self. Two of my classmates were killed within 2 weeks incountry and three wounded I know of. The other group of aeromedical evacuation were divisional, i.e. 15 May he was killed by friendly fire, and a host of us were WIA, myself included. 79% had a high school education or better. Jimmy aaja, jimmy aaja. Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. I was in the AF a Reo in a F4-C. Who had time to worry about the life This article appeared in the October 2021 issue of Vietnam magazine. However, it was the discretion of the individual crewmen if they wanted to carry personal weapons or not. I look over to Wow I was 31.8 Gun shot Carried model 1200 Winchester shot gun WIA May 68 Article was great. Remember he wanted to reenlist for one more year in Vietnam. Lt lost a finger, same time. The Kb of pyridine, C5H5N, is 1.5 x 10-9. If my memory is correct, only the 1st Cab flew wiith doorgunners. Four platoons in a rifle company. (LogOut/ Change). By mid-April 1967 I was pleading with the captain to get a replacement gunner for my M60 in 4th Platoon. 91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. When we reached Company A, we placed our dead in the center of the two-company perimeter. 1 Gun before my luck ran out. Most of us have memories of these kind of experiences. What unit lost the most soldiers in Vietnam? History is who we are and why we are the way we are.. 10-4. An Rtos job was essential, tough,(Carrying the extra weight of the radio transmitter along with his rucksack), and dangerous. Yes, I made E4 at graduation, that was considered a NCO then. Carried the prc25 for about 7 months. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. Not much different than his unit. .. waving then I realized they Werent shooting at him only at the Michael Doolittle..I was with 1/8 inf, 1st Brigade, and that day, March 22nd was also our darkest day. The article was interesting. We were like sitting Ducks. I too never understood survivor quilt, Enjoyed your article. The Kb of pyridine, C5H5N, is 1.5 x 10-9. We were told in training that the life expectancy of a machine gunner was about seven seconds from the moment the first round was fired. I remember hearing a Lieutenant (Kennedy) say to one of his two platoon RTOs My RTO is Foxtrot Uniform. 2023 CherriesWriter - Vietnam War website, RTO, John Scheur. located on the South End of, the Post. My heart was pounding out of my chest. Background [ edit] Keep in step with US Wings Join our newsletter to receive all our latest news and offers, Example: Yes, I would like to receive emails from US Wings. sweep team,then I heard the choppers and they were blowing the hell out in the tree line then it just got so quiet like nothing We had one RTO killed because he was too close to a 2ND Lt, same thing happened to another RTO. Thank You Roger!!! Sept 69 to Sept 70. Suddenly, I heard my name shouted from the Company B command group. Soldiers also act in the mobilization of vehicles, weaponry, troops, and more. It means, IF (!) However, inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous. Gotta say I think you hit it on the nose. Suddenly I realized that my platoon sergeant was screaming at me to stop firing. three, he believes he is doing what his country wants him to dojust like you So you better damn well treat him with the compassion you want for you!! Some of my men didnt. Before he was drafted Renza had worked as a hairdresser for women in his hometown of Peekskill, New York. Nevertheless, I swung No. The smell of those charred bodies, blackened and smoking from the napalm strike, is something I can never forget. 87% of Americans hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem. Needless too say I depended on Sgt. The Australian Vietnam veteran study assessed the postservice mortality of 19 205 Vietnam veterans and 25 677 non-Vietnam veterans through 1981. What percentage of Vietnam veterans actually saw combat? It had a crew of 4 (forward gunner, the coxswain (steering and driving) and the two aft gunners. Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation. We did interdictions, blocks and other fun things on the river. Thanks. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers. He was wounded and suffered permanent disability shortly before his tour was up. I was to have that experience two more times before it was over. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of the Communist forces on all fronts. Required fields are marked *. The body felt as though it weighed considerably more than it looked. wias. They kept coming up the hill bringing more bodies to me until all seven had been found. I carried the PRC-25 Radio most of that time. Phi Pow B.Sc (econ) in Economic History & Economics (college minor), London School of Economics and Political Science Author has 212 answers and 234.6K answer views 2 y Originally Answered: What soldier had the shortest life expectancy? I picked up my M60 and walked to the center of the perimeter, where I found the company commander, Capt. I was lucky too but VN never left me. The average age of the 58,148 US Servicemembers killed in Vietnam was . The 4th Platoons single machine gun crewthe platoon had entered the fight short a gunhad been killed in the fighting, and I was to be moved there. A documentary about our company and our 1st Sgt was made. I quit trying to make sense of all the numbers that have been generated about Vietnam. 2 Gun team, Ranallo and May, without any support. No creo que Susana _____ (seguir) sobre los consejos de su mdico. Combatants on both sides faced physical challenges posed by the climate, terrain and wildlife of the country. The one that should be there is the combat medic. Often as not he was right beside you with a stolen chicken and a bag of rice. Now, the wisdom of this soldier tough but humanly compassionate warrior ethos can be assessed through the 2d Bn recordNO complaints about mistreatment of prisonerswhile achieving the most combat SUCCESSES IN THE BRIGADE. 2 Gun.. Were talking averages, obviously so, an RTO, with an expectancy of 5 seconds (!) They have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups. If you look at all of the things the radio operators were tasked with, it becomes abundantly clear why commo guys weren't expected to last long. Knowing I had a 100-round belt in my M60, I opened up on that hillside, my gun getting so hot that the barrel smoked. Oh, and even the Air Force has ground units. Your Dad and I had the same job. I saw aircraft loaded with troops explode in mid-air. Thank You General Vessey for the almost 53 years I have lived since that day. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos (the politicians thought the Geneva Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva Accords or 1962 would secure the border). AS LEADERS IN AMERICAS SERVICES WE MUST BE PROFICIENT AND READY TO ACCOMPLISH OUR MISSIONS- Some gave all. Forget the statistics, we all had a job to do, we went where we were told. meaning what is the chance of me getting killed in combat. I have a fried Who is killed in Vietnam six months before I got there cause of death was other how would I find out since his parents are long gone, Do a search for his name n Coffeltdatabase.org, Sir, would you mind me translating this into Spanish and getting it posted in our blog? Your email address will not be published. I was never formally trained as an RTO. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between 95 and 00. Veteran Owned Since 1986. Lowering my gun, I turned around and noticed two VC sitting in the doorway of the hut, staring at me. The jungle seemed to want No. They were great patriots fighting for their families and their homeland. As a Huey door gunner, when we left the ground on a mission, I always thought that this mission would be my last! I was one of the many others I rode river boats in the Mekong Jan 68 to 69. 4 Answers aaja Come. My dad died of cancer at 52. Now, to calmly answer your question, air strikes have actually been an efficient technique used by us for years now. A "Sapper" is a combat engineer soldier who is with the front line infantry troops. Here are statistics from the Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of November 1993. Our battalion operated at a base camp near Tuy Hoa in Phu Yen province along the South China Sea from October 1966 to January 1967. Point was the safest place to be,they knew to wait for key elements, RTO, Medica, M60 Gunners. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. More importantly, Grandstaff was very gung-ho. I also was 2/327 B company. Ha Ha always enjoyed being a volunteer! I handled Top Secret Commo on a daily basis. 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975. In your rucksack . to the empployees was very informative. Both served in A 2/18 1st Infantry Division For some reason, the written word of this article was somehow deleted and lost. Still shaken, I grabbed the gun and crawled to the left inside the streambed. Express your answer in terms of x. It may not have worked for some other wars, but they were pretty helpful. I won a few times, and even when I did not I benefited from handling the gun under stress. HOOAH!!! 1 Gun, I jumped into a small dry streambed with Domke, my assistant gunner. Why is my internet redirecting to gslbeacon.ligit.com and how do I STOP THIS. The U.S. Infantryman Vietnam Pocket Manual contains gems such as infantry "patrol tips," maneuver techniques, and fighting methods for various environments. Not long after the artillery barrage ended, the North Vietnamese swept through 4th Platoon and executed some of the survivors. 76% of the men sent to Vietnam were from lower middle/working class backgrounds. Rules may have changed, I was in the Delta region. I am one lucky SOB. After a quick lesson, DeLong became the new owner of 4th Platoons No.1 Gun. My first tour was as an advisor to the VN Abn. Amen I was a machine gunner for 7 months 503rd infantry 173rd airborne and you hit the nail right on the head. I just wanted to get off No. See also: Population U.S. Wings is a manufacturer and a supplier. Was a door gunner and crew chief for just shy of 18 months (I extended to get out early). Thats why I never understand people talking about survivors guilt it should have been me, why him? etc. where can i find red bird vienna sausage? I was still pondering the move to 4th Platoon when U.S. Air Force jets screamed over the treetops with canisters of napalm. First thing we did was, Set up a complete circular perimeter. It is Honor in the Valley of Tears. 23,24 This study found that the death rate for Vietnam veterans was 1.3 times that for non-Vietnam veterans; however, the excess deaths were limited to Engineer Corps members (RR, 2.5). 2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam. RIght there and the NVA we were usually up against knew this. "The Rangers pulled themselves over the top," President Ronald Reagan said of the men, in 1984. I couldnt disagree. Saw from mostly safe distance almost all the weapons systems that where there used. Great story!!! The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground. "The Cotton Balers, damn fine Soldiers." The Battalion returned to Fort Benning on October 11, 1970 and was inactivated. Mi hermana se sorprende N-F C-F Cl-F F-F 2 Answers C-F is the most polar. Thats 390 per day. I was constantly untangling the barrel and bipod of the gun from grasping vines and branches. The answer that we have always been given is that 1 year in the Infantry is equivalent to 3 years of hard labor. It was always quick/quick, load the bodies in and get the hell out. Sorry,I was one of your Brothers in Arms that helped talk you out of enlisting for another year in Vietnam. estimated education differentials in life expectancy for Veterans in 2011-14 are close to those of U. S. population in 1979-89. Mech. If anything went wrong, I could easily kill some of our soldiers. (Although 58,169 names are in the Nov. 93 database, only 58,148 have both event date and birth date. I was an Artillery Forward Observer with the Infantry. His comparison to a FB was that if we were fired on we returned fire and requested assistance when needed. Bruce Grandstaff and my best friend, Sgt. History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. No. Here is an 18 The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (The Wall): Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years. Sometimes on Family Guy when there about to take someones heart out they say, calimar or maybe its spelled different. Carrying a dead man some 300 yards through thick jungle in 100-degree heat was extraordinarily difficult. %PDF-1.5
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Hack received the Purple Heart for major combat injuries, and spent the rest of his military career as a recruiter for the US Army in Akron, Ohio. NFS. Posterior Thigh _____ 4. David H. McNerney, who assumed command of the company when all of its officers were killed or wounded, was presented with the Medal of Honor in a White House ceremony in September 1968. Papitto Opportunity Connections Mission: The Papitto Opportunity Connection (POC) is a private foundation dedicated to listening and working together with Rhode Islands BIPOC communities to empower and create individual success stories by investing in education, job skills training, and entrepreneurial ventures. The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered. The average life expectancy of a front-line soldier in eastern Ukraine is four hours, a Marine said. They were also in a circular formation. I had scary thoughts about myself humping the bush as a RTO, I was a real puny guy back then. Point, slack and compass. Rarely do we examine war through the unique bond between a man and his weaponin this case the M60 machine gun. Enemy fire greeted as us as soon as we landed near the village. He pulled the company into a perimeter and dispatched 4th Platoon to recon the trail to the west, while 1st Platoon performed a similar mission to the east-southeast. This Battle changed his life and his future, had it not been for his actions, every man on this FSB Gold would have died. In total, the United States military lost in Vietnam almost 10,000 aircraft, helicopters and UAVs (3,744 planes, 5,607 helicopters and 578 UAVs). Amazingly, the NVA men then walked a short distance away, sat down and ate lunch. He was not the type to hump a radio. year old Marine thinking this is my last day on earth. There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non-Vietnam Veterans of the same age group (Source: Veterans Administration Study). Proudly holding my M60 over my head, I screamed at the top of my lungs, No. The three of us had trained together at Fort Lewis and were good friends. We gathered the casualties and set out for Company A. I traveled to Fort Lewis, Washington, and trained there for 10 months before deploying to Vietnam as specialist 4. _____ 1. In that time 4 us kia and 4 wounded. As I carried a PRC25 radio for over seven-months in the > Nam, I was curious to find out what I did RIGHT to surv >, One MOS I figured was a sure short timer was POL{Fuel} Truck Driver. If you were an administrative officer or clerk in an air-conditioned trailer in Saigon, your war might be a lot like peacetime duty. Surrounded by an enemy battalion, our hopelessly outnumbered platoon waged a desperate battle for survival. The average age of the 58,148 US Servicemembers killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years (CACF) Going backwards (Apr. The fact is that most machine gunners, RTOs, junior officers and other extremely dangerous jobs survived the war. Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old. Completa las oraciones con la forma correcta del presente de subjuntivo de los verbos entre parntesis.? (Getty Images) Most war stories are about soldiers and battles. We ambushed and got ambushed, firebase got attacked who carried what or did what had no bearing. BS but ia a way you are correct. See my calculation below in the comments bogus indeed. 2 Gun to Ranallo. According to the American War Library, as of February 28, 2019, it is estimated that approximately 610,000 Americans who served in land forces during the Vietnam War or in air missions over Vietnam between 1954 and 1975 are still alive to this day. One was holding a carbine. 1 gun and was hoping it would stay that way. We can all hold our heads high and be proud of our service. 99% of infantry men will currently live to die of natural causes. Great information. Over the next two months, we exchanged fire with groups of the NVA. Sure, its softer than it was before, but the training they go through is intense, something a loser who spends his time on the computer all day attacking people he doesnt know anything about and all the facts CANNOT do. Like you, I carried a PRC-25 for about 5 months and never got hit. by Zita Ballinger Fletcher 1/18/2022. (You can unsubscribe anytime), The US Wings website is ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) and WCAG (Web Content Accessibility Guidelines) compliant and adheres to their standards for accessibility of the internet so people with disabilities can surf the web more easily & efficiently. Startled, I quickly pointed my M60 at them. After a couple of hours, the Viet Cong stopped shooting and melted back into the jungle. It was the silent power of the pig, I suppose. Ordered to reinforce the unit, the Company B commander put our four platoons abreast of each other, and we marched west. Cruz quite a lot. When Apache Snow began, I was an RTO, after Airborne, and before the CA on Dong Ap Bia, I became the AG for Roeski. 1 Gun. I know the scouts in my company had a slightly longer rate but not much. I was an RTO for 9-1/2 months for Hawk Recon 2/327 101AB from dec, 1969 to sept 70. Nobody attacked, where we were. This was another example in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth. I felt the same way jumping off the chopper with my m-60, 300. rounds of ammo,grenades,sandbags and six canteens of water. Your email address will not be published. If it was 1941 and you were an average Soviet soldier, your life expectancy on the front line was days, not weeks, thanks to the ongoing german offence. (and yes, you cant ask them, so it would have to be derived from the AA-reports and survivors). THANKS! The most comprehensive and authoritative history site on the Internet. First Sgt. Bob Sanzone. My bud, Price took over as RTO. Everyone in the company hit the dirt. They used the callsign MEDIVAC and were armed. Calculate the pH of a solution of 0.157 M pyridine.? The Army suffered the most total casualties, 38,179 or 2.7 percent of its force. I was one of the lucky ones I came home without a physical scratch. He was posthumously awarded the Silver Star in 1974. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans group. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. And yes, please God, bless America. We are a woman-owned small business and Veteran-owned incorporated in Ohio. a RTO got killed, it happened within 5 seconds but not that always ALL RTOs got killed. The casualty rate in the current war today is a fraction. 1 Gun kept a lot of enemy heads down. DeLong had only fired the weapon once in training, so I let him fire off a few rounds to practice. It was an HONOR and a privilege to serve with these brave men for my 11 month tour. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim Phucs brothers were killed in this incident. Nothing could be further from the truth. As far as I knew that was done in the whole battalion in 1968 . The Vietnam War gave us trouble because we didnt know how to counteract against guerrilla warfare in a jungle (dont forget that the US Army was switching to M16s, which often jammed). Me, a vehicle mechanic with Btry E, 41st Arty Quads 1970. Welcome home!! Nixon Presidential Papers. The income differentials in life expectancy for Veterans in 2011-14, however, are estimated to be smaller. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism. I was told to show the new guy how to use it properly. It was very nearly my last. Around 3 p.m., when Grandstaff realized we were about to be overrun, he called in artillery right on top of our location. Then he said youre on a FB, the enemy always knows your location, can pretty much attack at will, and you really dont have the capability to retreat.
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